You fought for India’s freedom and witnessed its Partition. How do you look at the last six decades?
GUJRAL: There are several ways of looking at India turning 60. One can derive a great deal of satisfaction. We have matured a great deal as a people. See the way we sorted out the recent presidential poll. There were differences, no doubt, and they were debated. So many names came up. The democratic exercise involved big names and all political parties. We have come to a stage where society can transform with a great deal of rhythm. This, to my mind, is the main test of a society’s maturity.  There are many opinions on an issue. But the question is how you handle them.

You headed a coalition government.  Doubts persist whether they allow for political stability.
GUJRAL: These doubts and cynicism about a coalition government are misplaced. It has been there for so many years during which we have had so many governments. Even if there is a coalition government, the party system is very much in place; and it has worked. The way a new government took office in 2004, after the general election threw up surprise results, is testimony of the system’s maturity.  Each coalition has meant 15 or 20 parties working together. We have done it. Take the performance of the present government led by Dr Manmohan Singh. Parties of the Left, the Right and the Centre have worked together and found solutions. This is evident, more than in any sphere, in the country’s foreign policy. See the way the Indo-US nuclear deal has been sorted out to everyone’s satisfaction. You were also the External Affairs Minister. GUJRAL: As we enter the 7th decade, we shall have more of international conflicts among people of different religions and ethnic groups. Even without the conflicts, these areas will pose new challenges each year.  It is unfortunate that the problem of terrorism too is going to bedevil us. It is global and not confined to India. But we are handling it better than others.

What about India’s own internal contradictions?
GUJRAL: Casteism is part of our social structure; it cannot be eliminated. But with vision and united effort, it can be absorbed into our system. I give the example of the recent elections in Uttar Pradesh, India’s largest state. A Dalit woman revised her own past strategy, rallied the upper castes to become the Chief Minister, yet again. And now she is playing a role at the national level politics. She cooperates with the very people she had opposed earlier.  Then, there are traditional contradictions between the North and the South. People have now forgotten that the first separatist movement began in what is today Tamil Nadu. Today, the state is one of the mainstays of the nation, both politically and economically. We had the option to suppress. But we chose to carry everyone along. Not only Nehru did it, his successors too carried on with that approach that has kept us together, with a fair amount of harmony. Population, poverty, illiteracy - these are and shall remain our challenges. We do need to do more to curb them.

How have we fared with our neighbours? Have we been good neighbour ourselves?
GUJRAL: Our freedom movement becomes the starting point. There was multiplicity of opinions even then. The Indian National Congress represented all sections of the society. That was the first real exercise of managing multiplicity in modern India. India and Pakistan were one nation. But while Nehru recognised Tamil, Mohammed Ali Jinnah went to East Pakistan, sought to impose Urdu and rejected Bengali. That laid the foundation of the birth of Bangladesh. Not only that, opposition parties winning elections was accepted in India. In Pakistan, one wing chose to suppress the other. We have given our own meaning to democracy - we have redefined it as living together of multiple religions, races, and languages. That is why, again I may emphasise, governance by coalition has succeeded. Our freedom struggle was for seeking selfrule and democracy. But our neighbourhood was based on religion. The vision of Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru was different from that of Jinnah. People say we should be strong, or that we are not strong enough. A strong India? What is strong? Not only the strength of the armed forces. We defeated the world’s strongest imperialist power without the force of arms. If India had not become free, our neighbours would also have remained slaves. We do care for our neighbours. We have accommodated Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Maldives. But caring does not mean sacrificing our national interests. We can give concessions, but neither territory, nor secularism. These two are a matter of life and death.

Do you see India emerging as an economic superpower by, say, 2040?
GUJRAL: I hate the word superpower. We are trying to build ourselves economically. Who would have imagined 10 per cent growth rate only a few years ago? We are doing it without flaunting it. But look at China. Gandhi and Nehru never talked about being a superpower. They talked about, and rather worked for, building a cohesive and accommodative society. A large nation can always work to curb divisiveness. There are internal forces at work. The problem is, we do not basically believe in our own ethos. Our multiplicity has turned into our asset.

You have always said that the Gulf region is India’s extended neighbourhood.
GUJRAL: Relations with the Gulf region are part and parcel of our economic growth. This is a unique relationship. Millions of Indians live and work there. These are close, mutually beneficial economic ties; there are no contradictions. We can hold each other’s hands. India will always look at the Gulf region as an extension of its ethos. One of India’s smallest states, Kerala, has contributed the maximum to the region’s well-being.